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I have been thinking about the classic Trolley Problem, and I see two major issues that are rarely discussed.

  1. The Operator is the Sixth Victim (Moral Injury)

I see the lever operator not as an agent of power, but as a victim. Regardless of the outcome, this individual suffers lifelong moral injury. Is it fair to apply categories of "guilt" or "virtue" to someone forcibly placed in a state of zugzwang? Isn't the act of coercion a greater evil than the choice itself?

  1. The Trolley as a Tool of Manipulation

It seems to me that this dilemma trains us to accept responsibility for systemic failures. In reality, a "runaway trolley" is the result of negligence, malicious intent or bad design. By forcing us to fixate on the lever, we absolve the system's creators.

My Questions

Who is the "Invisible Killer" that created this situation, and why does philosophy focus on the victim at the lever rather than the architect of the disaster? Somebody tied people to the rails or created the system without brakes, but we tend not to notice this person in the shadow.

Isn't this "trolley problem" a form of institutional gaslighting? The system creates a lethal failure, but then shifts the entire moral burden onto the hapless individual at the switch.

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    @NotThatGuy it's very similar if a doc is put into such situation by healthcare system Commented Jan 21 at 15:16
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    More victims: Those of us who are asked to justify any answer to this question to anyone but ourselves. Commented Jan 21 at 16:19
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    @komodosp for you obviously it is. It is called projection in psychology. :) But as you can see from actual answers other people fully understand what question is about Commented Jan 22 at 10:23
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    I love where you're coming from! I used to ask, "Who is setting up all these moral dilemmas in the first place?! Aren't they the one that needs scrutiny?" In other words, given an artificial, hypothetical choice of A or B, my attitude is not let myself be cornered, and look for choices C or D. In real life, choices also have a context. They have a history and a future and a culture that can influence decisions. Commented Jan 22 at 16:59
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    @Him I am asking exactly what I want to ask. My goal was to ask that and not to make "the best balanced question of the year", sorry. ;) Commented Jan 22 at 18:34

8 Answers 8

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I take it your question is tongue in cheek but here goes anyways.

The trolley problem could easily be reframed in one where a boulder is rolling down a mountain towards two narrow valleys which contain entrapped victims. In this situation the moral agent can act to divert the boulder towards different valleys according to their preferred outcome. In this equivalent problem there is no negligence, malicious intent nor bad design. The boulder coming down would be an act of God.

As to the moral injury, that is a fact of life we all have to deal with every single day of our lives. Every day, for example, we could donate a small amount of money to help save a child in Africa from dying of malaria or starvation. Not doing this has consequences and inflicts potential moral injury on everyone of us...

The last paragraph refers to Peter Singer's famous drowning child dilemma for those who want more food for thought.

UPDATE:

By sheer chance the following YouTube video showed up in my feed: Would You Kill One Person To Save Five?, roughly around the 18.50 timestamp.

Wikipedia describes the experiment:

In 2017 a group led by Michael Stevens, a YouTuber also known as Vsauce, performed the first realistic trolley-problem experiment. Subjects were placed alone in what they thought was a train-switching station, and shown footage they believed to be real (but was pre-recorded) of a train going down a track, with five workers on the main track, and one on the secondary track; the participants had the option to pull the lever to divert the train toward the secondary track. Five of the seven participants did not pull the lever.

Michael Stevens relates in the video how there was a psychiatrist on set to debrief the participants and tell them the situation was not real, that the people were actors and that the way they decided (not to pull the lever) was okay and they had helped science forward...

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    entrapped victims on the mountain slope often imply negligence (of the victims themselves or their elders who gave bad advice or didn't warn of danger) and sometimes malicious intent. Commented Jan 21 at 8:42
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    Let me disagree. Real life investigations very often show - there are concrete people behind disasters. And not just "acts of God". These "gods" have names and last names - parents, social services, officials or company workers who didn't care etc, etc. Commented Jan 21 at 9:21
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    @Groovy Let him who is without sin cast the first stone... Commented Jan 21 at 9:34
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    It looks like God is the one who casted the stone in this case. Paradox -- System Halted Commented Jan 21 at 11:43
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    @Philomath - that's a thing for social psychology and connected to my question only through original "problem". It's well-known btw that "not pulling the lever" is easier cause non-action feels safer than action. This thing I knew before, but for my current question it's irrelevant Commented Jan 22 at 18:33
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I suspect you will find that the two important issues you rightly bring to our attention- namely the mental torture suffered by the lever operator and the culpability of the trolley company- are neglected in descriptions of the thought experiment not because they are inherently uninteresting, nor because there is a conspiratorial intention to divert us from considering them, but because they are not germane to the moral dilemma being studied.

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    Well, ofc, but it doesn't necessarily stop me from additional thoughts on this situation. Consider it a thought experiment to expand the discussion on the matter Commented Jan 21 at 8:27
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    Agreed. I took a similarly critical view of Einstein's famous thought experiment about a train struck at both ends by lightening. Not a word about the poor driver and guard. Commented Jan 21 at 9:39
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    @ProfessorSushing: If you want to solve your conscience, remember that a modern metal train will act as a Faraday cage, so the riders are protected unless they are standing outside of it. Same reason you may want to stay in your car if caught in a lightning storm; it may be hit, but you will be safe. (If you have any doubts, visit the Boston science museum sometime, and watch Van de Graaff's own static generator (originally used as a particle accelerator) zap the operator cage with two million volts of man-made lightning. Commented Jan 21 at 10:27
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    @keshlam phew. that is a relief. I was worrying myself sick about them. Commented Jan 21 at 10:46
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    @ScottRowe: The impressive thing is not how well the bear dances, but that the bear dances at all. My real mistake is trying to do things that require significant typing on the phone without paranoid proofreading; between transcription errors and autoincorrect... Actually, there is a fast typing mode that paradoxically seems less prone to errors, but making myself use it.... and I still need to improve my poorfeading habits. Fast and accurate on real kbd, so not paranoid enough. Commented Jan 22 at 3:26
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You can reframe the problem as follows. You are the driver of an ambulance with a young man on board who was badly injured: entirely due to his own fault. He was driving too fast (racing against a friend) and crashed his motorbike into a wall. You half-way to the hospital and you pass by an accident site where two young men are gravely injured: they too have crashed into a wall. They were responsible for their own fate, because they were doing a race, driving too fast, and both lost control. There are no other ambulances or help in range. (you can change "boys driving to fast" with "heart attack/strucked by a lighting/there have been a devastating earthquake/tsunami an they have been crushed by rubbles" etc.)

In any case, you have to choose between "change your course of action" and stop to help those two (in which case your passenger will die if you delay, but you will save +1 life) or let things unfold as they were, you don't stop and continue driving to the hospital (in which case the two will die because no one will help them in time).

You find yourself in this situation because you consciously decided to become an ambulance driver; you are paid for it and you could have in principle even foreseen this situation.

Does this make the moral dilemma (the deep problem it is trying to adress) more sharply presented and thus easier to solve? Or is a slightly different situation that however changes the whole problem?

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  • There is no moral dilemma in this case. You are setting up a kind of strawman moral argument. In any actual situation the ambulance drivers would not be able to know they could potentially save 2 lives. It would simply be their duty to continue to the hospital (and try to call another ambulance). Commented Jan 22 at 23:45
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    @mudskipper Of course it's a contrived situation, but so is the Trolley Problem. Commented Jan 22 at 23:46
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    The Trolley Problem is contrived and morally repugnant because of its stupid abstraction. Commented Jan 22 at 23:48
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    Even worse for this case, civilian medical personnel typically have a duty of care. Once they respond, they are responsible for an ailing person until they refuse care or are delivered to a hospital (or similar). There are of course edge cases, but this is not one of them once they started transport. If they stopped, they could be charged with a crime. Commented Jan 23 at 3:25
  • @mudskipper I mean, if you want a realistic situation... what do you think about triage? In case of a large-scale catastrophe, with many (more) victims than there are ambulances/doctors available, triage will occur to sort out the victims. The Red Cross uses colors: green => only suffers minor injuries (no need to involve a doctor), red => requires urgent care, black => hopeless. There's a training for Red Cross volunteers where they learn to use their judgment to pick green/red/black. Black is typically a death sentence. Commented Jan 23 at 12:17
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I'm not sure asking multiple questions is OK here - most stacks require you ask a single, clear question. Also, this appears to be a joke question, rather than genuine philosophical inquiry. However, it does touch on some common misapprehensions, so it's worth answering.

The Operator is the Sixth Victim (Moral Injury) [...] I see the lever operator not as an agent of power, but as a victim. [...]

They are both. They are the one who gets to make the decision (agent of power). The decision to act may be hard, and morally harmful (victim), and that moral quandary is what the question is about.

Is it fair to apply categories of "guilt" or "virtue" to someone forcibly placed in a state of zugzwang? Isn't the act of coercion a greater evil than the choice itself?

This claim of "zugzwang" is false: it means a compulsion to move. There is no compulsion intended or implied in the problem, no "coercion" to pull the lever.

I often see naifs acting as if there's a "correct" answer to this question, as if it's not a dilemma. The OP shows signs of this misapprehension, by assuming that there's a correct answer that one is forced to take.

In reality, a "runaway trolley" is the result of negligence, malicious intent or bad design. By forcing us to fixate on the lever, we absolve the system's creators.

The dilemma is: would you personally want to act, taking on moral responsibility, to cause N bad outcomes; or would you prefer inaction, permitting M >> N bad outcomes instead?

The trolley, lever, tracks, ropes and even deaths are "color text". They are there to frame the question in such a way as to prevent answerers from trying to dodge the core dilemma, but are not otherwise relevant to that dilemma. Anyone who will "fixate on the lever" is looking in the wrong place and misunderstanding the question.

And once again, nothing is "forcing" someone to focus on these irrelevancies; that's a "them" problem, a hyper-literalist failure of comprehension of the problem given.

A logically equivalent question, different only in color text, and which is faced tens of thousands of times a day in real life, is: as a doctor, do you select a lethal drug rather than a cure to administer to 1 organ donor with a rare phenotype, if doing so will allow their organs to save 5 lives?

Resolving this dilemma is why we have rules like "first do no harm", "informed consent", and "bodily autonomy".

Note how the outcome that is near-universally-accepted as being morally correct in medical reality turns out to be inaction; this is the disproof of anyone who believes that this is a case of "zugzwang". In real life equivalent situations, you are ethically required not to deviate from the expected outcome.

The trolley framing is intended to avoid the nit-picks and niggles about the framing that would happen in more realistic scenarios like this. "The Socratic oath exists", "You can't guarantee 100% efficacy of the cure, poison, or organ transplants!", "What if there are other more eligible organ donors?" and so ad infinitum. People, given a dilemma, will always look for a way to create a third option, a way to weasel out of having to make a choice.

The trolley problem places the dilemma on literal rails in an effort to avoid this issue. The lever provides a mechanism that allows for no third option. The deaths are used as a stand-in for "unquestionably bad moral outcomes". Even despite framing the choice to be as binary as possible, you will see that people asked the question will still try to find alternatives: "derail the train by switching the lever at just the right time!", "maybe the lives of the people dying aren't all as morally important!", "I would have acted much earlier, to untie them!", etc.

Who is the "Invisible Killer" that created this situation, and why does philosophy focus on the victim at the lever rather than the architect of the disaster? Somebody tied people to the rails or created the system without brakes, but we tend not to notice this person in the shadow.

There is no invisible killer. Not even in the hypothetical universe of the person making the choice.

This is the nature of hypothetical questions like this: they are restricted solely to the context given. There is no additional context that may be gleaned or inferred.

There is no prime mover, as the past does not exist, the entire scenario being formed ex nihilo at the moment of decision. The rest of the world must be treated as if it doesn't exist; perhaps one can imagine this happening on an infinite empty plane for the rails and lever to rest on may be imagined, but not even that is permissible if the answerer tries to make the existence of the infinite plane be relevant to their answer, such as "if there's nobody else on the plane, maximizing population is essential to species survival, so..." or "if there's nothing else on the plane, we'll need something to eat, so...".

So to answer some of the questions asked:

Is this problem somehow not "fair"?

Mu. This is like asking whether the question "Do you want one apple, or seven apples?" is fair. Fairness doesn't even come into it. Why would we have any expectation of fairness? To whom would it be unfair? This is a non sequitur.

Is this problem "a form of institutional gaslighting"?

No. To be institutional, there'd need to be some institution (perhaps the loose brotherhood of philosophers?) responsible.

To be gaslighting, it would have to be deliberately making us believe something which was patently untrue, and I see no sign of it making us believe anything at all. Instead, it calls us to examine our beliefs.

Does it "trains us to accept responsibility for systemic failures"?

No, and if anyone experienced that outcome it would be through their own failure to understand the concept of hypothetical dilemmas and framing: a "them problem". Similarly, if anyone was driven to go around punching train engineers by this dilemma, or who developed an unhealthy fixation with levers.

Any mental breakdown of an answerer is not a responsibility of this dilemma, nor of those who ask it, as mental harm is not an outcome that could be reasonably expected. And if harm can't be reasonably expected, then the responsibility for not going bonkers would lie with the owner of the brain.

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    "this appears to be a joke question" - not at all. And the very fact you see it as a joke, is a bit disturbing tbh Commented Jan 22 at 18:36
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    I say this from concern, having walked a similar path: if you genuinely asked this question in good faith, focusing on the framing rather than the core, blind to the concept and point of hypotheticals and thought experiments... then you may want to show your question to a psychiatrist, and ask about "hyperliteralism". I mean no insult, even though with the social stigma around psych issues, I'm worried you'll take it that way anyhow. But then I'd also be insulting myself: I left it over fifty years to seek help due to that same stigma, and now strongly regret my procrastination. Good luck. Commented Jan 22 at 22:17
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    I am mostly interested in discussing social concepts, not the users of SE forum. Commented Jan 22 at 23:08
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    I feel like the main answer here is how the trolley is a framing device, and the good part starts there. That may be why OP can read the first part, which more-of-less takes the Q seriously, and not understand why people think it may be a joke. Commented Jan 23 at 20:48
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Far be it from me to say this out loud, but people who pose these kinds of questions do not always have the most coherent grasp of moral theory. There is often an implicit authoritarian assertion that people have moral responsibility for situations not of their making or choosing. I mean, the entire premise of the Trolley Problem is that a person has a moral responsibility to do something in such a situation: that a lack of action is equivalent to a failure to act correctly, even though there are no positive actions that would constitute correct action either.

It's even worse in the Prisoner's Dilemma model, where the authorities setting up the dilemma are doing something explicitly immoral, but are not themselves subject to moral judgement.

The real use of a question like this is more like a koan: to get one to realize that the entire premise of the question is wrong. But that is (sadly) lost on most people…

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  • This is the core issue imo. It's kind of disconcerting to me that this answer only got one upvote sofar... And more disconcerting that these points are almost never expressed in the discussion around this...(For the PD I agree that the original formulation has an immoral and pretty akward, unrealistic setup, but the game-theoretical scenario also models other situations that imo are not immoral or akward - e.g. tragedy of the commons.) Commented Jan 23 at 13:35
  • @mudskipper: Yeah, well… It's worth remembering that most people live in a field of authority (and here I'm defining authority as the implicit conferred right to impose/remove responsibility on/from others) the way that fish live in water: i.e., completely unaware that the thing they live in exists. It takes a lot of philosophical/psychical work to see the field for what it is, much less break free of it. Commented Jan 23 at 16:41
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    @mudskipper: And not all game theory is bad or immoral, but all game theory starts from the premise that there are 'rules' to a 'game', and those rules are the field of implicit authority. it's interesting to think about… Commented Jan 23 at 16:43
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Yes, this is all correct. The best answer to the trolley problem is "try the brake first, then kill the person who is forcing this situation on you".

If the person asking you this question tries to dismiss your answer with "it's just a dramatic illustration of the difficulties of utilitarianism", point out to them that it's notable that they found it most convenient to envision a highly abusive society with invisible authorities, and maybe there's something wrong with the folkways of the philosophy they practice.

Tell them that if they want you to engage with them on this issue they need to formulate a gedanken experiment without the abusive elements. If they say that these elements aren't important to the question, tell them that they are for you, and that it's worth considering whether using this story might encourage a degree of unquestioning submission in people.

There are lots of fun variations, imagining different objections. "It's inconvenient to reformulate, let's just move along with the question as is." --> "Isn't it interesting to see what people will give up for convenience." I encourage people to complement this answer by posting others in the comments.

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    Doing this too much replaces the trolley problem with a troll problem. Commented Jan 21 at 20:56
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    I have an animated gif on my desktop computer showing a solution to the problem revealing nobody has to die. If the switch is thrown just so, the trolley stops. Commented Jan 21 at 22:15
  • @Joshua: and derails? Commented Jan 22 at 3:27
  • @keshlam: Yeah that's the problem with trying it in miniature; it didn't derail when it would be expected to be. But it should stay upright, which means the expected number of deaths is still zero. Commented Jan 22 at 3:55
  • Doing what too much? Encouraging people to question the implicit premises of situations? Advocating action? "Trolling" is posting stuff just to get an cheap thrill from people's emotional reactions. Me, I want people to take this seriously. I guess upvoting one of a couple instances of a perfectly fine bit of word play is one way for people to deal with it. Commented Jan 23 at 1:34
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In the larger philosophical context, these type of thought experiments gained prominence in philosophy as a result of the rise of empiricist commitments, and a Humean suspicion of a priori rules and regularities. In the absence of universal laws, interrogating intuitions became a widespread methodology for establishing shared moral commitments.

In other words, in a situation providing a moral dilemma, propose a thought experiment to isolate it at a fine-grained level, and survey people to find what their intuitions tell them--an approach adapted from the social sciences. You aren't supposed to think about things outside the scenario (the Invisible Killer, the Sixth Victim) because those are not part of the "moral decision unit" under study.

Personally, I find it an incoherent philosophical methodology, and I agree with you that these thought experiments train us to take a myopic focus on a single moral decision point, without regards to the larger systemic context. While the situations are hypothetical and fictional, that kind of thinking and decision making has done a lot of actual damage in the world.

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  • I didn't want to include this in my answer, but I'm tempted to say the Invisible Killer is Hume... Commented Jan 22 at 20:34
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I'm going to leave aside the “expansion of the OP,” and give my opinion on the original problem.

First, we need to understand something. We all agree that this is the best thing that can happen. The problem arises with the idea of deciding who is going to die. The usual approach is, do I decide that the large group should die (I kill them), or do I not get involved?

There is a catch in that approach. “I don't get involved” does not exist. You did not decide to be there. You do not like it. You do not want to, but by action or inaction, you are going to kill people. You cannot avoid it, so decide...

PS: If there are two people in one group and 25 in the other, but one is a politician... killing 24 innocent people is worth it ;)

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  • Why don't sharks eat lawyers? Professional courtesy. Commented Jan 22 at 2:59
  • Excellent!!! you've made my afternoon. Commented Jan 22 at 3:07
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    My question is saying nothing about "not being involved" it's a about the causes of the actual situation. You are giving your opinion on "original problem" -- cool but it's not what being discussed here. Commented Jan 22 at 10:25
  • @Groovy If your complaint is excessive focus on the original problem, then the question you asked, "Are we solving the wrong problem?" has an answer. And that answer is "no." Commented Jan 22 at 23:53
  • @Groovy, your approach is interesting, but impossible to address without context (a specific event), as it would involve pure speculation. For example, I could argue that it is actually divine intervention (if I believed in that), and no one could refute it, since we don't know what we're talking about. So, if you want answers, present a specific case. Commented Jan 23 at 0:21

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