Talk:Algiers

Khair-ed-Din (see History, below), who, to accommodate his pirate vessels, caused the island on which was Fort Penon to be connected with the mainland by a mole (architecture).

The more research I'm doing, the more I'm finding that Algiers has neither an associated municipal government, nor is there anything that could be considered a city proper. The province is divided into districts, which are further divided into actual city propers which cover metropolitan Algiers. There is no Algiers City, in that respect so this sentence in the beginning paragraph:

"According to the 1998 census, the population of the city proper was 1,519,570..." jh ted local government for the urban area, or is there not really an Algiers city in terms of local governance? --Criticalthinker (talk) 12:52, 14 February 2011 (UTC)Reply

Come on; someone has to know. --Criticalthinker (talk) 03:05, 8 September 2011 (UTC)Reply

the article Algiers referrences both a coty and a province, I suggest they are seperated --The Brain 11:47, 6 September 2005 (UTC)Reply

Why is Algiers called the islands? There are no visible islands in the vicinity of algiers...--Burgas00 17:38, 1 June 2006 (UTC)Reply

This is really quite a complex question. The name of the city varied in the old times in Arabic: some wrote it "jazayer" others wrote it "zayer" (obviously this is vocal transliterations I'm writing with latin characters). "jazayer" means "the islands" in Arabic. "zayer" means absolutely nothing in Arabic. Anyways... as the city grew powerful in the middle ages it also became the name of the country Algeria (Algeria is called "el jazayer" today in Arabic) like Tunis to the East gave its name to Tunisia and Marakech to the West gave its name to Morocco. The thing is that in Algeria there is an Arab and a Berber culture. Today those who want to promote Arabic identity of Algeria claim that "el jazayer" means "islands" and is a proper Arabic word (just like el jazira, the TV station means "the island" or "the peninsula". singular). Those who want to promote Berber identity claim that in the historical books it was written more like "zayer" originally. So the 2 viewpoints are these: - "zayer", which means absolutely nothing if taken as a noun in Arabic comes from the fact that the man who rebuilt the city was called Ziri. And he was a Berber prince. "Zayer" therefore would mean "Ziri's city". - To make matters worse, those who support Arabic identity and the theory of "the islands" actually have a case too. There used to be 4 small islands in front of the old city which was much smaller than the modern Algiers. The old city was located in the left side of the bay on the satellite picture and it is today the Casbah district of modern Algiers. The islands got linked to the land however over centuries. The last island ceased to exist as an island in the 16th century. It was the one which the Spanish had built a massive fort with an artillery based there, from which they bombed the city continuously in order to obtain it's surrender in the 16th century. When the residents of Algiers captured the fort from the Spanish, they destroyed the fort and used its blocks to link this last island to the city. I think that was around in 1520. Over time therefore, there is no more islands left. So the origin of the name of the city is a matter of discussion between Algerians themselves. The fact that the city gave it's name to the country makes the discussion a national one. And the fact that the government which suppressed Berber culture for a decades took sides with the Arabic theory of "jazayer" (also written djazair in latin characters) has pushed many defendants of Berber culture into the arms of the theory of "zayer" or the Berber prince Buluggin ibn Ziri's city. What exactely is the truth? I personally don't know but I think that its both at the same time. Voilà for this quite Mediteranean dispute over a name :) Cordially, a resident of Algiers 82.101.153.210 06:34, 22 September 2006 (UTC)Reply

The Arabic version has the longer documented history, as Abu Abdullah al-Bakri writing in the 11th century calls it "the islands" belonging some tribe I forget who. And I've also seen it somewhere that the Phoenician name Ikosim meant seagull islands. Anyway, is it not odd that neither Arab nor Berber explanation of the name is given in the article, but another one? MisterCDE 05:28, 8 February 2007 (UTC)Reply

Algiers is the richest city in the Maghreb, not Casablanca. Anwar 14:57, 16 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

Nowadays, in 2007, Algiers wants to become again a large capital African and Mediterranean Sea, planning to have a level of development of the infrastructures comparable with that which it had in 1962. It undertakes an opening towards the world by organizing many demonstrations and international conferences. Algiers has attracted thus for a few years of great multinationals such as Crossroads, Yves Rocher, or Quick. Many great projects of realization of infrastructures such as subway of Algiers, it tram like various projects of urban reorganization, of creation of new satellite urban centres, pain to be born, though they should have been completed there is more than 15 years: Algiers is in full urban development, moved by a need for assertion at the regional level in its fight to compete with the other North-African cities of Tunisia and of Morocco. For the year 2007, Algiers is capital “Arab culture”. On April 11, 2007, one Attacks of Algiers of April 11, 2007 double atttendants to the bomb aims at the palate of the government (where seat the Prime Minister and the Minister of Interior Department) and the police station of Bab-Ezzouar. These attacks are asserted by Organization Al-Qaïda in the Islamic Maghreb.

I can't make head or tail of this. Perhaps a machine translation. Rmhermen 01:25, 18 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

If I am comparing the cities/ urban areas/ metropolitan areas of both Algiers and Casablanca, than Casablanca is coming out as the 'largest' (in terms of population). So I changed the sentence that 'the urban area of Algiers is the largest in the Maghreb', to 'the urban area of Algiers is one of the largest in the Maghreb (behind Casablanca)'. --Robster1983 15:15, 1 September 2007 (UTC)Reply

It looks like this is a machine translation of the french article, like the article about Oran. I think it should be reverted to this revision, or any similair revision, until we get a "human translation"? --escondites 22:50, 2 November 2007 (UTC)Reply

I've done some extensive copy editing of the article, particularly the history section. I am posting my translation of the "Years 2000" section that looked like a google translation of the equivalent section of the French article on Algiers. I removed some info and POV but a translation can't work miracles, the source text itself is not the greatest... Anyways, here it is, let me know what you think.

Algiers in the 21st Century

Today, in 2007, Algiers is seeking to once again become an important African and Mediterranean capital, envisioning having a comparable level of infrastructure development to what it had in 1962 relative to other countries. Algiers is opening itself up to the world by hosting a variety of international conferences and events. This new openness has attracted the investment of a number of multinational companies in recent years, such as: Carrefour, Yves Rocher, and even Quick. However, many large infrastructure projects are struggling to be completed: the Algiers subway, the tramway, urban renewal projects, the creation of new urban centers on the periphery. The current infrastructure has not been able to keep up with Algier's rapid growth.

2007 has brought mixed results for Algiers. On the postive side the city has been named the capital of "Arab culture" for 2007. On the negative side, a double bombing attack ocurred on April 11 with one bomb targeting the government building housing the Prime Minister and the Minister of the Interior; and another bomb targeting the police station in Bab-Ezzouar. The attacks were claimed by an organization calling themselves the Maghreb branch of Al-Qaida.

Algiers is currently ranked lowest out of 132 capitals in the Economist Intellegince Unit's quality of life survey. The survey takes into consideration 40 different criteria divided into 5 categories: stability, health services, culture and environment, education, and the availability of basic services. Algiers was ranked lower than such cities as Karachi (Pakistan), Tripoli (Libya), Abidjan (Côte-d'Ivoire), and even Dhaka, the capital of Bangladesh. In 2005 the same survey ranked Algiers 125th out of 129 cities. Vrac 07:17, 3 December 2007 (UTC)Reply

This is terrible. The grammar and punctuation in the later parts are atrocious. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.247.165.195 (talk) 21:17, 6 December 2007 (UTC)Reply

Agreed. Look at the paragraph under "Sports" for instance. - Jack Vermicelli 2warped@gmail.com 98.243.83.191 (talk) 21:12, 7 October 2009 (UTC)Reply

The article says:

"...and largest city of Algeria and the second largest city in North Africa behind Casablanca, Morocco."

Has Cairo been sold to Europe?

Come on people!

4.240.87.252 (talk) 01:38, 31 January 2008 (UTC)Reply

who'd want to buy cairo? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.49.210.37 (talk) 17:15, 17 February 2008 (UTC)Reply

I'm sure someone must know; what is the area of Algiers in square kilometers/miles? That needs to be added to the infobox. --Criticalthinker (talk) 11:01, 20 November 2008 (UTC)Reply

Okay, I'll get my measuring tape.

This article is being discussed in a column by John McIntyre. The part was added back in 2007 by User:December 21, 2012, who is now blocked. (and judging from his talk, he has caused more trouble in this article). Can someone clean it up ? --TheDJ (talk • contribs) 15:21, 12 February 2009 (UTC)Reply

I have removed the word salad in question. Lumos3 (talk) 12:37, 13 February 2009 (UTC)Reply

Algiers is an important economic, commercial and financial center, with in particular a stock exchange with a capitalisation of 60 billion euros. ==> 60 billion euros ! That's not true, the capitalisation is of about 60 million euros, not billions. See http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bourse_d%27Alger (in french)

This needs editing.

—Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.76.85.141 (talk) 01:54, 15 February 2009 (UTC)Reply

The second reference provided previously was a url to that now seems to be a dead. This has been replaced by a live weblink.

Also the 1st reference provided on the tournament while perfectly valid cannot be verified without a copy of the book referenced. The weblink mentioned in the previous paragraph to replace the deadlink not only verifies the book reference but also contains an image of the tournament program.

History seems a little thin as if Algiers springs into existence during the middle ages. Nothing more on the Phoenicians? The Romans built a street and a cemetery? That's it? What about ancient man? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.81.159.117 (talk) 06:58, 4 May 2009 (UTC)Reply

Could someone please indicate the English pronunciation of "Algiers"? Having the French pronunciation of "Alger" is nice, but I find the English pronunciation even more relevant to an article in the English Wikipedia. Thanks, --Haspelmath (talk) 16:29, 24 November 2009 (UTC)Reply

Done. /ælˈdʒɪərz/. Couple of refs in case they're needed: M-W, dictionary.com. Lfh (talk) 14:10, 14 January 2010 (UTC)Reply

The English pronunciation isn't very unusual and so belongs at the Wiktionary entry (wp:notdictionary). The French pronunciation, as you noticed, is entirely irrelevant given that it's an Algerian town now and belongs at the Wiktionary entry, all the moreso since it's unsourced. — LlywelynII 23:52, 3 December 2018 (UTC)Reply

Why Algiers is a twin of Cairo? —Preceding unsigned comment added by EgyTig (talk • contribs) 14:54, 25 August 2010 (UTC)Reply

Please add one night photo in the article. -- Extra999 (talk) 18:00, 11 March 2010 (UTC)Reply

Some books with mention of Algiers's early history: Cities in the Middle East. Encyclopedia of Islam. Historic Cities of the Islamic World. The Places Where Men Pray Together. — LlywelynII 02:52, 18 September 2011 (UTC)Reply

The Coordinates in the info box, 36°42′N 3°13′E, are for the airport. I'd guess 36°46′N 3°3′E as reflecting the centre, but someone who knows the place might want to pick a good centre of the city. Jlittlenz (talk) 04:01, 16 February 2013 (UTC)Reply

The Berber origin theory is clearly a fringe theory. See the talk page for Algeria for more details. --91.148.130.233 (talk) 15:09, 9 May 2013 (UTC)Reply

The Berber origin theory is not fringe at all. Despite wanting to think of themselves as Arabs and descended from Arab invaders, the majority of Maghrebi "Arabs" in Morocco, Tunisia and Algeria are overwhelmingly genetically Berber in their DNA.

In fact, in some parts of the Maghreb (e.g. in Tunisia or Kabylie), there is just as much genetic influence from Western Europeans as there is for Arabs, likely from Vandal times.

PowerToTheWest (talk) 01:47, 5 March 2018 (UTC)Reply

Demographics - "The ethnic distribution is 53% from an Arabic-speaking background, 44% from a Berber-speaking background and 3% foreign-born, mostly from China, Vietnam, and Mali." Can anyone find a source for this information? --J intela (talk) 14:54, 1 May 2015 (UTC)Reply

What is missing from the recently created city timeline article? Please add relevant content. Contributions welcome. Thank you. -- M2545 (talk) 14:55, 19 May 2015 (UTC)Reply

The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Algiers/CommentsTalk:Algiers/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.

Last edited at 14:48, 13 February 2007 (UTC). Substituted at 07:17, 29 April 2016 (UTC)

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Some old sources claim that the city was founded by the Mesgana family, who gave their name to the city (search) but the article doesn't mention this name. Is this dated information that has been replaced by newer evidence, or what? Mathglot (talk) 03:25, 29 January 2024 (UTC)Reply

The term demonym is never used in this article, and I think I understand why: the situation is rather confusing. In French, the term algerien originally meant someone from Algiers, and it retained that meaning until around 1892, when algerois took over that meaning, and is still used today for inhabitants of the city. In English, there is the ambiguous Algerian, and in older sources, Algerine. For sources and more details on this, see Talk:Algeria#Terminology of Algeria and Algiers. We have Tangierian in English for residents of Tangiers, but the analogous situation for Algiers yields the ambiguous Algerian, and I suspect that's why it's not covered. Mathglot (talk) 22:44, 29 January 2024 (UTC)Reply

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Hello. What do you mean by the origin being WP:UNDUE? From how many sources would it no longer be UNDUE for you? Monsieur Patillo (talk) 12:18, 20 November 2025 (UTC)Reply

Assuming you're referring to this edit:

1. Any claim (even implied) that "Dzayer" is a Berber name would need to be backed by reliable sources. The Berber encyclopedia mentions what the medieval historians said about Algiers, yet doesn't say anything about "Dzayer" (a name used by all Algerians to refer to the city as well as the country).
2. The "Tiziri" claim (provided in passing by a non-historian and non-Berberologist) is unreliable and fringe.

M.Bitton (talk) 13:45, 23 November 2025 (UTC)Reply

Hello.

1) I didn't reintroduce the first point. I've taken note of your observations, so you want a more notable historical source to summarize your complaint?

2) I added the current Berber name, sourced from two APS (Algerian Press Agency) dispatches, in both spellings. So I don't understand your revert. Monsieur Patillo (talk) 15:51, 23 November 2025 (UTC)Reply

You mean the second point. I do realise that you haven't restored it, but I thought I'd address it in case it comes up again. The transliteration is misleading as it implies that "Dzayer" is a Berber name (something that no RS suggests). M.Bitton (talk) 16:27, 23 November 2025 (UTC)Reply

• Morsly Dahlia, professor of linguistics, wrote in Alger Plurilingue (1996), p.12, Le [z]se substituant à [3] est-il la trace insistante de la berbérité ? Car [z] est l'initiale de Ziri et de Ziride, les fondateurs d'Alger. C'est également le symbole de la berbérité et la lettre tifinagh qui le représente graphiquement est comme un signe de ralliement, un signe de reconnaissance de la poterie, des tissages berbères. Aussi n'est-il pas impossible d'imaginer, comme certains le font, que Dzayer est le résultat de la contraction [ aziri ] et signifie « ceux de Ziri » . Par assimilation , [ e ] passe à [ d ] . [ z ] symbole de la berbérité relayée par la lettre yaz. Dzayer se maintient comme le berbère s'est maintenu à travers les âges..
• Why remove the current Berber name, which is perfectly sourced?

Monsieur Patillo (talk) 18:42, 23 November 2025 (UTC)Reply

That source is not saying that "Dzayer" is a Berber name. It is asking a question about the origin of a name that, throughout history and its written records, has never been described as Berber by anyone.

Are you expecting me to keep repeating myself? M.Bitton (talk) 19:12, 23 November 2025 (UTC)Reply

• In which language does the word Dzayer appear, according to the author (Morsly Dahlia)?

This idea was also found in the work of Dmoh Bacha [, also a linguist, in Algerie Culture Identité : À travers les siècles, l'appellation Ath Ziri fut altérée en : Zayer, Dzayer, Jazayer, et finalement El Jazair. Cette dernière denomination est le résultat d'un pétrissage linguistique pour produire un néologisme à consonante arabe. Once again, in what language is the toponym that Dmoh Bacha presents as having subsequently been Arabized into a neologism?

• I'm expecting a clarification of your position. I didn't understand if you're opposed to including the name in Berber (as it's currently used) ? or only if it's associated with some hypothesis about the origin? If yes to the last question, where should it be placed in the article (name in the current Berber language)?

Monsieur Patillo (talk) 20:56, 23 November 2025 (UTC)Reply

The question and the speculation are in French. A "linguist" mean diddly squat. Besides, neither of those is a linguist, much less a Berberologist or a historian.

I suggest you read what the Berber encyclopedia says (based on what is known about the names of Algiers, and not just some baseless speculations). M.Bitton (talk) 21:12, 23 November 2025 (UTC)Reply

• Mohand Tilmatine (Cadix, : HUM683 Lenguas y sociedades bereberes), Retour sur le toponyme al-Djaza:'ir. Un état des lieux (UCA), Etudes et recherches en linguistique et littérature amazighes : Enfin, et cela me semble assez significatif : aucune langue maternelle algérienne ne réalise le nom de la capitale ou de l'Algérie comme dans la version officielle al +aza: ir, mais dans la variante locale: dzayer, ce qui donne dzi:ri (AlgéroisAlgérien) et dzi:riyya/dziriyyin (Algérois/Algériens au pluriel) en arabe dialectal ; adziri/adzayri et idziriyen/idzayriyen en amazigh pour les habitants d'Alger, les Algérois ou les Algériens en général. Notons que la forme DZIRI pourrait se décomposer en berbère de la manière suivante : dziri > d (a)Ziri, c'est un Ziri (de la dynastie/tribu des Zirides : c'est un algérois/Algérien). Un rapprochement entre l'éponyme Ziri et l'actuel Dziri que suggérait T. Yacine (1992 :58). The author is a specialist in Berber studies. So now what's the next grievance?
• Can you answer my questions? Thank you.

Monsieur Patillo (talk) 22:05, 23 November 2025 (UTC)Reply

1) He's talking about "dziri" (not dzayer). 2) He's not saying that it is Berber ("pourrait" is the magical word). 3) He attributed the speculation (about "dziri") to Kateb Yacine.

So now what's the next grievance? take it easy. M.Bitton (talk) 22:36, 23 November 2025 (UTC)Reply

I am calm; I have addressed all your objections respectfully and diligently. Okay, so we can transcribe the sourced information for Dziri regarding the origin.

And put the current Berber name elsewhere (in a section that suits you).

Is that alright with you? Monsieur Patillo (talk) 22:48, 23 November 2025 (UTC)Reply

ps: he quotes Tassadit Yacine (not Kateb), an eminent specialist on the subject, who is the director of the journal Awal. Monsieur Patillo (talk) 23:03, 23 November 2025 (UTC)Reply

No, "Dzayer" and "Dziri" are two different words. An "eminent specialist" of Berber culture (not language) speculating about the word "dziri" (not "dzayer") doesn't tell us much. Besides, if there was anything to tell, the Algiers article of the Berber Encyclopedia would have said it (like it does for everything that is related to the Berber world). M.Bitton (talk) 23:28, 23 November 2025 (UTC)Reply

Dziri is indeed relevant to the topic (the name of the capital, Algiers) according to the article I am quoting.

The Encyclopédie berbère is a respectable source, but it is not the only one. (Where does this criterion come from, anyway?) To use your own criterion, the article (in EB) isn't focused on linguistics.

I'll leave it to you to make a counter-proposal. Monsieur Patillo (talk) 00:40, 24 November 2025 (UTC)Reply

I disagree and I see no need to keep repeating myself. M.Bitton (talk) 00:44, 24 November 2025 (UTC)Reply

I have tried to respond sincerely and to the best of my ability to your objections. However, as the disagreement persists, I am requesting a third opinion. Details of the procedure are on the dedicated page: WP:THIRD). Monsieur Patillo (talk) 18:27, 25 November 2025 (UTC)Reply

Dzayer and Dziri are definitely two different words. Skitash (talk) 18:47, 25 November 2025 (UTC)Reply

that's why I suggested in my penultimate message to use the Dziri form, to be accommodating to the criteria of my interlocutor who was asking for a source from a linguist in Berber studies. Monsieur Patillo (talk) 18:51, 25 November 2025 (UTC)Reply

Incidentally, the two words are linke by this sentance : aucune langue maternelle algérienne ne réalise le nom de la capitale ou de l'Algérie comme dans la version officielle al +aza: ir, mais dans la variante locale: dzayer, ce qui donne dzi:ri (AlgéroisAlgérien) et dzi:riyya/dziriyyin (Algérois/Algériens au pluriel). The mother tongues in this article are Berber and Algerian Arabic. So we have the name of the city (Dzayer) and its demonym (Dziri). Monsieur Patillo (talk) 18:57, 25 November 2025 (UTC)Reply

You are just repeating what you said while ignoring the responses (1 and 2).

Wikipedia is not a collection of baseless speculations and fringe claims (by non-specialists to boot), it's an encyclopedia. M.Bitton (talk) 19:02, 25 November 2025 (UTC). M.Bitton (talk) 19:02, 25 November 2025 (UTC)Reply

I replied:

1) The term "pourrait" simply reflects caution and can be presented with the same caution in article here. Why would you want to remove the information instead of presenting it (with the appropriate weighting) to the reader? See my previous message here. For your complete information, the paragraph title is Eponym Ziri > Dzayr (< d ziri) ?

2) I included the information note on Mohand Tilmatine; he is a university specialist in Berber language and culture. He is not making "speculations"; he is working on a thesis, and Wikipedia's principles is to present the different viewpoints sourced by specialists (WP:NPOV).

I would also add what another linguist specializing in Berber studies states: Dabouz, Hammou , « Essai sur le toponyme Tzaïr/dzaïr (al-djazaïr) capitale d'Algérie », in : Timmuzya 21, pp. 23-34. 2010 : Sous l’angle de la description historique (diachronique) du toponyme At Ziri dont le statut relève simultanément de l’anthroponymie (comme l’atteste la tranche At qui, dans notre cas, signifie descendants) et de la toponymie, l’itinéraire évolutionnaire à reconstruire est comme suit : At-Ziri > T-ziri (suppression de l’article a) > D-ziri (transformation de t en d) > T-zaïr > D-zaïr > Dja-zaïr (addition de ja) > Al-Dja-zaïr (forme véhiculée uniquement par les sources arabes écrites). Etymologie du nom At Ziri Dans la recherche du sens (objet de la sémantique), At Ziri se décompose en At (fils de, descendants de, gens de, ceux de…) + Ziri (lune, mois lunaire…). Ses deux composants s’analyse comme suit

I've provided as many sources as possible according to your criteria so now I'm waiting for a third opinion. Monsieur Patillo (talk) 19:32, 25 November 2025 (UTC)Reply

Before wasting time reading what the source says:

linguist specializing in Berber studies according to which reliable source? M.Bitton (talk) 19:59, 25 November 2025 (UTC)Reply

His article was published as part of the study days organized by the Haut Commissariat à l’Amazighité (HCA) on the theme "Amazighity and History: Onomastics and Identity" and which took place in Zeralda on December 17 and 18, 2008. He is cited by his peers (Tilmatine ...) + published in the journal Timmuzgha. Monsieur Patillo (talk) 23:57, 25 November 2025 (UTC)Reply

In other words, you made a claim that you cannot substantiate. M.Bitton (talk) 00:04, 26 November 2025 (UTC)Reply

That's been proven, but if we have a disagreement about the source, that falls under the purview of a third-party review (or any other procedure for resolving editorial disputes). Shouting (in bold or all caps) at someone solves nothing... Monsieur Patillo (talk) 11:14, 26 November 2025 (UTC)Reply

I don’t agree with your suggestion. Reliable sources universally agree that the capital’s name refers to the islets facing the city, upon which Barbarossa built the port of Algiers. Even the Punic name of Algiers refers to these islets. Buluggin himself wouldn’t name the city after his father’s name since it would look like he would attribute him and his dynasty to the mezghena tribe (Djazair beni Mezghana). This does not make any sense and historians, ancient and contemporary, could not have missed something as obvious as naming a city after its founder if it was indeed the case here. Some speculations made by few Berber languists here and there can’t overlap the well attested fact in RS.

These languists probably missed the fact that the Zirids did name a city after themselves which is none other than their own capital “Achir Ziri” as shown in the map of Al Idrissi . Nourerrahmane (talk) 19:54, 26 November 2025 (UTC)Reply

I would just like to clarify that several of the works already cited in this section (Morsly, Tilmatine, Dabouz, Yacine as reported by later authors) are not random "blogs", but publications by linguists or specialists who discuss the Ziri / At Ziri / Tziri hypothesis in a cautious, academic way.

• On the mainstream view: Mohand-Akli Haddadou (professor of Berber linguistics) devotes a detailed article to the toponymy of Algiers and concludes that the current name is of Arabic origin, derived from al-Jazā'ir ("the islands") in reference to the islets off the harbor, explicitly rejecting a Ziri-based etymology as attractive but incorrect.^[1] This is in line with the standard explanation in most reference works, and nobody here is proposing to remove or downgrade that majority view.
• On the existence of a Berber-based hypothesis: the point is not to "replace" the islands etymology, but to acknowledge that a minority of linguists working on Amazigh and Algerian toponymy have argued for a Berber substrate behind the popular forms dzayer / dziri:
  • Dalila Morsly, in the introduction to the special issue Alger plurilingue, explicitly raises the question of a Berber trace in the shift from /ʤ/ to /z/ in Dzayer: Le [z] se substituant à [3] est-il la trace insistante de la berbérité? Car [z] est l'initiale de Ziri et de Ziride, les fondateurs d'Alger. C'est également le symbole de la berbérité…^[2] This is formulated as a question and clearly presented as a hypothesis, which we can also reflect with due caution in the article.
  • Mohand Tilmatine (University of Cádiz, Berber studies) underlines that no Algerian mother tongue (Arabic dialects or Amazigh) pronounces the official form al-Ǧazā'ir, but rather a local variant dzayer, from which dziri (demonym) and Amazigh forms like adziri/adzayri for the inhabitants are derived. He notes that aucune langue maternelle algérienne ou nord-africaine ne réalise le nom de la capitale ou de l'Algérie comme dans la version officielle al-Gaza'ir, mais… dzayer… and adds that la forme DZIRI pourrait se décomposer en berbère de la manière suivante: dziri > d(a) Ziri, c'est un Ziri (de la dynastie/tribu des Zirides) while attributing this line of thought to Tassadit Yacine.^[3]
  • Hammou Dabouz, in an article first presented at HCA (Haut Commissariat à l’Amazighité) study days and later published in Timmuzya 21, reconstructs a diachronic chain from a Berber anthroponymic toponym At Ziri ("the descendants of Ziri") to the current forms, arguing that Sous l’angle de la description historique (diachronique) du toponyme At Ziri… l’itinéraire évolutionnaire… est comme suit: At-Ziri > T-ziri > D-ziri > Tzar > D-zar > Dja-zar > Al-Dja-zar and that At Ziri se décompose en At (fils de, descendants de, gens de, ceux de) + Ziri (lune, mois lunaire).^[4]
  • The link between the tribal name Mezghenna/Beni Mezghenna and a possible older Berber form is also discussed by Tassadit Yacine and later summarized by Madjid Aït Mohamed, who reports Yacine’s hypothesis of an arabisised form of Imazighen giving rise to an original Amazigh name Tiziri n At Imezghan, "Ziri des Berbères" for the country.^[5]

All of these sources are already mentioned or quoted in this discussion; the point is simply that they show there is a small but sourced academic debate about the possible Berber/Zirid dimension of dzayer / dziri. Under WP:UNDUE, this does not justify presenting the Berber hypothesis as the main or "true" etymology, but it does justify a short, clearly qualified sentence alongside the majority "islands" explanation.

A possible neutral wording in the article could be something along these lines (for discussion):

Most scholars derive the name of Algiers (Arabic al-Jazā'ir) from "the islands", in reference to the small islets that once lay off the city’s harbor. A few linguists working on Amazigh and Algerian toponymy have instead suggested that the popular form dzayer / dziri may go back to a Berber anthroponymic toponym At Ziri ("the descendants of Ziri"), later reinterpreted and Arabised as al-Jazā'ir. These proposals remain a minority view and are usually presented with caution in the academic literature.^[6]

If such a sentence is placed after the standard "islands" etymology, with the appropriate qualifiers ("a few linguists", "minority view", "with caution"), it would in my view respect both WP:NPOV and WP:UNDUE. Michael Boutboul (talk) 11:06, 29 November 2025 (UTC)Reply

Dalila Morsly is not saying that "Dzayer" is a Berber name. She is asking a question about the origin of a word that isn't even the common name of the subject.

Mohand Tilmatine is referring to "dziri" (not Dzayer). He attributed the speculation (that links "dziri" to "ziri") to Tassadit Yacine (who is not a linguist).

Hammou Dabouz is neither a linguist nor a historian.

Madjid Ait Mohamed is neither a linguist nor a historian.

In other words, we have a single linguist asking a question about the origin of a word that isn't even the common name of the subject. M.Bitton (talk) 14:49, 29 November 2025 (UTC)Reply

With respect, I do not think this can be reduced to "a single linguist asking a question about a word that is not even the common name of the subject". There are at least three different issues here: who the authors are, what they actually say, and the status of "Dzayer" for Algiers.

• Dalila Morsly is a linguist and university scholar, not a random commentator. Her article "Alger plurilingue" in the journal Plurilinguismes (no. 12, 1996, pp. 47–80) is routinely catalogued under linguistics and cited in sociolinguistic work on Algeria.^[7] In the passage already quoted in this thread she explicitly frames the link between [z], Ziri/Ziride and "Dzayer" as a question and a hypothesis, not as a "fact". That is exactly how it can be used in the article: as a cautiously attributed suggestion by a linguist.
• Mohand Tilmatine is a Berber linguist (Berber Languages and Culture, University of Cádiz). In his article "Retour sur le toponyme al-Djaza'ir. Un état des lieux", he describes the name of Algiers as "one of the most curious and complex" toponyms because several historical and ideological layers overlap.^[8] In that paper and in his later piece on language policy and toponymy, he notes that no Algerian mother tongue (Arabic dialects or Amazigh) actually pronounces the official al-jazair, but uses the local form dzayer, from which dziri and Amazigh forms like adziri/adzayri for the inhabitants are derived.^[9] The Berber reading "dziri > d(a) Ziri" is clearly marked as a possible analysis and explicitly attributed to anthropologist Tassadit Yacine. Again, that is discussed as a hypothesis in peer-reviewed Amazigh studies, not as a blog-level claim.
• On the status of "Dzayer": here the sources are quite clear that this is not a marginal word. Tilmatine’s whole point is that none of the Algerian native languages realise the official al-jazair, but the local variant dzayer for the capital/country name, from which the demonyms are formed.^[10] In addition, recent toponymic standards explicitly record Dzayer (or Ldzayr) as the Amazigh name for Algiers. For instance, the French Commission nationale de toponymie’s 2021 list of world territorial divisions, for DZ.16, gives: "Nom du chef-lieu en arabe: El Djezaïr / Al Jazāʾir. En berbère: Dzayer".^[11] The UK PCGN "Algeria: Toponymic Factfile" similarly lists, for DZ-16, Arabic "Al Jazā’ir" and Tamazight "ⵍⴷⵣⴰⵢⵔ (Ldzayr)".^[12] So "Dzayer"/"Ldzayr" is in fact the standardised Amazigh name for the city and wilaya.

So, from the sources, we do not have "a single linguist and a random word", but:

• a mainstream line (including Haddadou and standard encyclopedias) that derives Algiers from Arabic al-Jazair "the islands", and
• a small number of specialists in Amazigh linguistics/onomastics (Morsly, Tilmatine, Dabouz, plus Yacine as cited by Tilmatine) who discuss whether the popular forms dzayer/dziri might preserve a Berber/Zirid layer under the later Arabic toponym.

Per WP:NPOV and WP:UNDUE, that does not justify presenting the Berber/Zirid hypothesis as equal to the islands etymology, but it does justify a single, clearly qualified sentence noting that "a few linguists working on Amazigh and Algerian toponymy have tentatively proposed a Berber/Zirid origin for the popular forms dzayer/dziri", while keeping the Arabic explanation as the majority view. Michael Boutboul (talk) 17:45, 29 November 2025 (UTC)Reply

With respect:

• Dalila Morsly is not saying that "Dzayer" is a Berber name. She is asking a question about the origin of a word that isn't even the common name of the subject.
• Mohand Tilmatine is referring to "dziri" (not Dzayer). He attributed the speculation (that links "dziri" to "ziri") to Tassadit Yacine (who is not a linguist).
• Hammou Dabouz is neither a linguist nor a historian.
• Madjid Ait Mohamed is neither a linguist nor a historian.
• The Berber Encyclopedia mentions the names of Algiers that have been recorded throughout history, but for obvious reasons, doesn't say anything about the FRINGE claim.

In other words, we have a single linguist asking a question about the origin of a word (in the local dialect) that isn't even the common name of the subject (al-Jazair). M.Bitton (talk) 17:49, 29 November 2025 (UTC)Reply

• Morsly: agreed, she does not say that "Dzayer" is a Berber name. In a linguistics article (Plurilinguismes 12, 1996) she only raises it as a question. I am not asking to state it as a fact, only to attribute her question as such.
• Tilmatine: in his toponymy paper he explicitly notes that no Algerian mother tongue pronounces the capital as "al-jazair", but as the local form "dzayer", from which "dziri" is derived, and he recalls "dziri > d(a) Ziri" as a tentative analysis attributed to Tassadit Yacine. So we do have a Berber linguist discussing this hypothesis for the name of the capital, even if cautiously.

Michael Boutboul (talk) 19:26, 29 November 2025 (UTC)Reply

• Tassadit Yacine is perfectly competent on the subject.
• I would like to remind you that the Arabic etymology is not supported by any recent source from a linguist. It is based on a lecture by Leschi in 1941. Therefore, what is required to support the Berber hypothesis of the word is not required for the Arabic hypothesis...
• Dalila Morsly is not saying that "Dzayer" is a Berber name. This is contradicted by what the author writes. At the very least, no one can rule out that it postulates the hypothesis of the contraction of ceux de Ziri (p.12).
• that isn't even the common name of the subject (al-Jazair) : this is a personal opinion that directly contradicts Dalila Morsly : Même réappropriation chez G. Esquer : « Bologgin fonde au Xe siècle sur l'emplacement de la ville romaine, une ville berbère qui fut appelée El Djazaïr dont nous avons fait Alger. » Le colonialiste chrétien préside ainsi, par le miracle du nom, à la « naissance » ou au moins à la renaissance d'Alger. Dans tout ce débat académique, est complètement et systématiquement omis le nom que les habitants aussi bien arabophones que berbérophones donnent depuis toujours et jusqu'à aujourd'hui à leur ville : Dzayer [dzajer]. Personne, dans la vie de tous les jours ne dit, lorsqu'il parle arabe ou berbère, Al Djazaïr. Et la chanson aussi bien que la poésie populaire parlent de Dzayer. This passage is interesting because 1) the "centrality" of old, obsolete academic sources around Al Jazair is criticized (Esquer was writing at the same time as Leschi) 2) Dzayer is a name among Arabic and Berber speakers, the most common one, it does not have to be obscured in the article in favor of (the only mention) Al Jazair.
• The Dziri/Dzayer debate is pointless; a language can offer two possible roots for a proper noun. Therefore, in terms of hypotheses, mention both Tilmatine and Morsly.

Monsieur Patillo (talk) 20:50, 29 November 2025 (UTC)Reply

The lead section mentions that the official name of the city is "Capital City of Algiers". This appears to be translated from the Arabic-language name (الجزائر العاصمة), however wouldn't a more realistic translation be "Algeria City", because the names of both Algeria (the country) and Algiers (the city) are the same in Arabic? In any case, the literal translation of the Arabic name is "Algeria Capital", or more grammatically "Algeria the Capital", both of which do not translate well into English. Zach1055 (talk) 15:27, 18 June 2026 (UTC)Reply