-15

6 sites have 1 mod (emacs is active), 41 (~23%) have 2 mods (solana+quant most active), and 51 (>28%) (some fairly active) haven't held elections since at least 2020:


Moderation might help with issues like spam accounts, unhandled duplicate tags, long review turnaround times, and limits even trying to add to review queues (especially askubuntu), etc.


Related:

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  • 22
    Could you please elaborate on why you think it might be a good idea to require regular elections? Commented Aug 11 at 15:20
  • given they are "lifetime" in length, there's not much need to run regular elections. Commented Aug 11 at 15:21
  • 6
    @KevinB I think the implication is that they shouldn't be lifetime in length, but the question could definitely use some clarification on that front. Commented Aug 11 at 15:53
  • 8
    Related: Should Community Moderators be "elected for life", or have terms? Commented Aug 11 at 16:46
  • 2
    Moderators can be more effective than regular uses in some review queues, but succeeding in having the community at large to be more active there is a lot more effective. Commented Aug 11 at 17:40
  • 2
    @Glorfindel if a site needs to elect moderators whose job would be to go through the review queues, there are deeper problems than what an election can solve. Commented Aug 11 at 17:41
  • 1
    Also, wait - you said you have issues with reviews on Ask Ubuntu. Which had an election this year. Are you trying to say that elections solve the issue of reviews (in which case your example disproves) or that they cause issues with reviews? Commented Aug 11 at 17:47
  • 14
    In my experience, elections can be detrimental to reviews because most mods actually reduce reviewing because they have unilateral reviews and the mod duties take up time they might have spent on reviews. Commented Aug 11 at 17:51
  • 5
    Deleting spam and reviewing suggested edits are both things that can be done by regular users without the need for moderator intervention. Can you explain why you believe having more elections, and therefore more mods, would help with those particular problems? Commented Aug 11 at 18:01
  • 8
    A lot of the spam, especially on smaller sites, isn't even handled by moderators. The system that should stop the question from being posted at all is absolutely flawed and letting through way too much, but the community in general takes up much of the slack. Enough spam flags get a question removed even without needing a moderator. Perhaps there's simply not enough flagging going on or we lost more active members than the spammers did. The issues you mention do not directly equate to more elections being necessary, not at all. Commented Aug 11 at 20:20
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    @DanGetz yes, ideally elections elect more mods; that's why I called out sites that barely have mods Commented Aug 11 at 23:19
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    @KevinB They are not for lifetime - long inactivity causes demodding, by hand, by the SE. Beside that, mods activity tends to decrease with time, even if they remain so or so active. I believe, that might be the reason of the elections even on sites without a proportional activity increase. Commented Aug 12 at 10:59
  • 3
    One thing that's never discussed is that it would be great to have at least 1-2 moderators active in every major time zone no matter how small the site is. But the main problem is that nobody wants to be moderator at all, so there is that. Commented Aug 12 at 11:33
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    @Lundin Maybe a concept of "moderator on duty" could be introduced. They had lesser permissions as the ordinary mods, particularly on sensitive data access, but they had power over multiple sites. Maybe over all the small sites. Their focus would be prompt response on urgent cases. I think already SE mods over multiple sites would qualify as the best candidates. Commented Aug 12 at 15:57
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    @peterh someone who's on call to deal with random issues really should be on the payroll. Maybe something under the community management department.... Commented Aug 18 at 14:06

7 Answers 7

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I think at the core, there's a bit of a misunderstanding of what purpose mods are intended to serve... but I want to do that while recognizing that the intention and the reality don't always align.

I've spent probably more time than most thinking about this as it relates to the SE moderation format. I think there certainly are arguments for regular mod elections but much of what you're pointing out shows a shortage of high-rep curator-type users (and failure by the company to adequately support curation).

Curators are users who spend a good amount of their time supporting existing posts on the site and making the site easier to use. On the SE network, these features are generally available to anyone with enough reputation rather than being limited to moderators. Yes, mods can do them more easily (unilaterally) but most can be done by a group of users.

Here's the list you posted, my initial reaction and the core problem leading to the issue:

  • spam accounts - while it's true that only mods can delete accounts, the posts they create can be deleted with sufficient user flags. The accounts do not need to be deleted and doing so is too labor intensive to relegate it to mods, even if there are more of them.
    • Core problem: the company needs to actually intervene and do more to prevent and handle these accounts and their posts rather than mods or users needing to act. Mods have been trying to get attention to this for years. The spam problem just keeps getting worse.
  • unmerged duplicate tags - with few exceptions, high rep users can do this without mods. There are a minority of cases of tag curation that require mod intervention (e.g pluralizing).
    • Core problem: the tag synonym tool is too hidden and nothing draws attention to the merge queue (not even for mods). It's essentially necessary to post about it on meta to get any action on a suggested tag merge. Changing elections isn't the solution here. You could elect dozens of mods and still have suggested tag merges that no one knows about.
  • long review turnaround times - Mods are actually discouraged in many ways from reviewing when they become mods, both by the community and the platform. The intention of the platform is for mods to handle exceptional cases and reviewing rarely falls into that category. Mods have unilateral reviewing, so many mods are hesitant to review for closure unless the case is particularly clear or a few other users have already voted to close.
    • Core problems: insufficient reviewers coupled with the site settings requiring more reviews than the site can reasonably manage. This has been investigated in the past. Some have argued that mods should have the option to cast non-binding reviews but this wouldn't necessarily lead to better outcomes in your situation. Plus, knowing how to review can be confusing and isn't rewarding for most people, so it tends to be avoided or forgotten by many users.
  • limits even trying to add to review queues - Mods can't control the suggested edit review queue size and increasing it just kicks the can down the road. The core issue is the same as the prior item.

The site is complex and there are lots of issues but I don't see how more elections/more mods would actually solve the specific issues you're citing. The platform needs serious overhauls in these categories and your frustration is exactly why community members get so bothered by the company investing heavily in AI but not in addressing these core problems.

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  • I have >2500 StackOverflow reputation, but I can almost never use the tag synonym tool because of tag score requirements: meta.stackexchange.com/q/103211/… Commented Aug 11 at 21:21
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    Yes. Fine-tuning or re-thinking those restrictions is absolutely part of the core problem - but, as with the other aspects, that requires the company acting to change the system, not regularly-scheduled moderator elections. Commented Aug 11 at 21:53
  • reducing moderator importance is an alternative, but it seems likelier to decrease the infrequency of existing systems rather than chase down all those code changes Commented Aug 11 at 22:00
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    Can you help me understand how "reducing moderator importance" would have any impact since I've essentially pointed out that moderators are not the solution to any of your problems? People come from other platforms and make assumptions about what "moderators" are here on SE, often attributing question closure and editing and other actions to "moderators" that aren't unique to or even primarily performed by actual elected moderators on this platform. It's that assumption that needs to change, not the actual moderator role. Commented Aug 11 at 22:08
  • we just discussed an example in these comments.. moderators are exempt from the tag synonym tool's main restriction (tag score) Commented Aug 11 at 22:13
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    ... but mods don't have anything leading them to even check if there's anything in that queue without someone bringing it up on meta... which I already addressed in this answer. Having more elections doesn't address that. It requires having more notifications that synonym suggestions exist and need review. When the SO mods were actively working on tags, one or two mods were well capable of handling all retag requests and other tag maintenance... but it just requires a discussion on meta to actually draw attention to it. Commented Aug 11 at 22:24
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    Other options include rethinking whether only people with high tag scores are capable of determining whether merging makes sense. Plenty of people have expertise without having written answers. Finding alternative ways to grant permissions is a major aspect of what the platform needs to rethink. Commented Aug 11 at 22:26
  • to clarify, the main issue is that I can almost never even suggest synonyms. Anyone can see suggestions here: stackoverflow.com/tags/synonyms?filter=Suggested Commented Aug 11 at 23:36
  • 3
    @PatMyron. If the main problem is with the tag synonyms, wouldn't it be more useful to create a post addressing the current issues with the tag management, along with solutions to this issues? Commented Aug 12 at 1:29
  • @AugustoVasques I meant that's my main issue with the tag synonym tool. There are multiple issues with the dearth of moderation on this network, and I never intended for this post to get so lost in any of those weeds Commented Aug 12 at 4:25
  • 6
    @PatMyron I don't know if you're aware but I used to be a CM for SE and one of the primary aspects of my role related to moderation and elections and setting practice for when elections are held... so when I say I've spent more time than most... it's somewhat tongue in cheek. In conjunction with JNat, we essentially rewrote the policy allowing sites to have fewer than three mods based on our experience. JNat mentions it somewhat here. Commented Aug 12 at 7:23
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    Now, that was back in 2020 but that's when we had to decide how big of a deal it was if there were only 1 or 2 mods on a site. Most of those sites had tiny amounts of activity (less than 1-2 questions per day) and the moderators were happily able to handle things on their own while we got to hold elections... but that's when we discovered the difficulty of actually finding candidates. The company can't force a site to have 3+ mods if there aren't any users who want to volunteer! But, the thing is, the work of a mod on a tiny site is minimal. Commented Aug 12 at 7:26
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    It's not my zoo any more, so I can't attest to why the Gen AI site still has zero mods. But, as I already mentioned, the CMs can do everything a mod can do and more, so just because there aren't any listed mods doesn't mean no one is there handling flags or monitoring meta.... I can't guarantee they are... but it's probably a safe bet that, given the community attitude to the company's current obsession with AI, which included creating the GenAI site the way they did, I don't know that the community cares too much if the company's pet site fails. Commented Aug 12 at 7:30
  • 5
    More recently (18 months ago) the company claimed to be looking into reworking the elections process... as far as I'm aware, nothing in that post ever got mentioned again. Commented Aug 12 at 7:33
  • 4
    @PatMyron. Please stick to the focus of your question. Other topics, other questions. Here you raised the discussion about the frequently election of new mods, but you did not explain why. Despite the friendly tone, we are not in a chat room. We are just repeatedly and in various ways simply asking you to supplement the missing information in your post. Commented Aug 12 at 7:33
13

I notice spam and unmerged duplicate tags, encounter long review turnaround times...

If the community isn't flagging spam or clearing review queues, more moderators (assuming you can get enough people to volunteer) is a bandaid at best, and in some cases, might cause the most active users to reduce the reviews they participate in because they now have binding votes (as Catija pointed out).

Moderators are not supposed to be super-users.

Having an election just because a site hasn't had one in a while doesn't seem like it has any benefit over just allowing a community to request an election if it feels it needs one.

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  • communities flag spam content, but I've edited to specify account-level spam that moderators have more tooling to tackle Commented Aug 11 at 23:22
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    @PatMyron Ok. I don’t see any evidence that’s a problem that isn’t already under control, and even if it were, I don’t see how more elections solves it. You seem to want more moderators, but more elections doesn’t necessarily mean more mods. Commented Aug 12 at 1:44
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I'll ask a slightly deeper question: do you think these sites are satisfied with their mod leadership? I'm not saying this to put those particular folks on the spot, but to name the implication clearly.

I want to be clear, I think it's good to speculate on alternatives / what we could be doing differently. This is especially true re elections, which really were built for a different time. I also think it's wise to build two steps ahead and put effective systems in place before problems emerge. So I'll say that I do actually believe there can be value in a periodic confirmation vote, but it's not without its costs and tradeoffs, and those must be respected, too.

The primary value of such procedures is typically in offering the opportunity to amend moderation and leadership teams that aren't working the way the community wants - whether by replacement, addition, or rarely subtraction. At the same time, while stagnancy is no good, neither is needless paperwork. (How's that for a triple negative?) If communities are still broadly happy with their moderators, and their moderators are still successfully moderating the community, then there stands to be little value added and a significant amount to be lost in trust, time, and paperwork. Hence the question above.

There's value in exploring the question further, but it's all speculative, and to become a concrete proposal it needs to leave the realm of wondering. What I'd ask you to do - if you want to pursue this further - is to clearly and blamelessly identify the problem this fixes, and to go further to explain why fixing the problem is worth the cost of the particular solution you want to propose.

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    "There's value in exploring the question further" and it has been explored further. Not just on MSE either. It is explored every so often. Usually it's concluded there are a lot of unintended side-effects and those combined with the extra work are not worth it. Commented Aug 11 at 20:16
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    Yup, @Mast. That's certainly true. I only answer this way because, every once in a while, there's value in reworking the answer rather than repeating the existing one. Even if the issue seems well-understood... Commented Aug 11 at 20:48
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    It seems the core question here is an XY problem anyway. A predetermined solution to a problem that can't actually be fixed with the proposed solution. Commented Aug 11 at 21:55
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    Probably, @Catija. But on occasion I like to shake the tree and see if an interesting conversation falls out. It's meta, not main; we can humor a little XY here, I think. Sometimes someone who thinks they've identified a problem is seeing it in a new or important way, even if the explanation is ill-wrought. Sometimes not, though, ofc. "Go read some more and return with another insight" is a totally reasonable thing to say... Commented Aug 11 at 22:13
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    It's probably not intended but I don't think I've taken any action to shut down the discussion that would indicate I needed a reminder that it's meta and discussion is welcome. In my mind, this is largely a reminder that the Q&A format isn't well-suited to Meta's needs... Commented Aug 11 at 22:40
  • 1
    Kudos for asking if users are happy with their mods! All bashing between the tripartite division mods/company/community has seen criticism directed exclusively from (mods, community) -> to company (that's the empirical quantification - fact)! If mods are ever criticized their peers or community buddies immediately shut down any discussion, so the real question is how often this tendency, having gone unchecked and being instigated, became real oppression and not just dissuasion through habitual suppression. My answer is simple: it's regular with no checks whatsoever in place. Commented Aug 14 at 10:02
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No. There should not be a network-wide policy making periodic elections compulsory on every site. However, each site should be able to decide whether and how often they want to hold them.

The answer might look the same as VLAZ's answer, but the reason is different.

Below are some facts, some of which have been mentioned in comments to the question and other answers.

  1. Elections take a lot of time and effort
  2. Historically, despite efforts to run an election, several have been canceled because there weren't enough candidates.
  3. Sometimes, when the CMs have "tested the waters" to see if the Community is interested in having an election, the community hasn't shown interest, or the site circumstances were not appropriate for an election at that time.
  4. When the Pro-Tempore and Elected Community Moderators were asked if adding more moderators was necessary, they replied that it was not.

The alternative to having more Community Moderators without burning the CM and the Community is to appoint Pro-Temporare Moderators, but this also requires having trusted users willing to fill the position.

If you think a site would benefit from having an election and if they should be periodic, instead of posting here on Meta Stack Exchange, post on the Meta corresponding to that site or start a conversation about this on the corresponding main chat room.

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  • While more active moderators seem preferred, having to prepare a candidacy in an irregular couple week period that may happen only every 10-15 years excludes quality candidates, so it doesn't surprise me when elections go poorly. If more regular elections aren't desired, perhaps the nomination window could at least lengthen Commented Aug 14 at 14:28
  • Let me know if there is anything I can do to improve my answer without changing the original intention. Commented Aug 14 at 15:01
  • You have the association bonus and can participate in any Meta site and any site's main chat room. Please feel free to post your proposal or chat about it on the realm of each site where you want the election to be held. Commented Aug 14 at 15:03
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    I don't understand how a proposal on each site relates to my comment about lengthening nomination windows? Are sites able to unilaterally set nomination window length however they prefer? My understanding was that the network has guardrails around election window length, which is why I commented that here Commented Aug 14 at 15:13
  • Sites can change their workings. A change in the workings should first receive community support, then create a feature-request. A moderator or CM will add a status-review to a meta post to escalate it to the Company's team, which will analyse the problem and might give feedback about the issue and what the company can do. Some situations in which the Community thinks a change in the software/hardware is required might be resolved by other means. Sometimes, a dev might apply a setting on behalf of the CMs. Commented Aug 14 at 15:26
  • 1
    Here is the official post about escalating a site request / proposal -> What posts should be escalated to staff using [status-review], and how do I escalate them? Commented Aug 14 at 15:53
  • 1
    Thanks for the links. I still believe this is a network issue rather than site-specific since it seems like elections have these issues across sites, so it's unlikely I'll post about this on any particular site Commented Aug 14 at 16:12
3

I suspect the primary value in 'regular' fixed moderation elections would simply be that the company would have to dedicate (more?) resources to it.

... haven't held elections since at least 2020:

Isn't a great metric. We get asked every so often if we need more moderators, and Super User dosen't need more for now. This would change if one of our more active moderators left but least for now, we can manage with 'losing' a moderator for a week or two. We might want to look at it at some point but - the lack of elections isn't really due to a lack of care, it's due to the lack of need.

Admittedly our statistics are a little skewed by spam handling (and low complexity flags), but we have ~5 minute flag handling time on Super User, We deal/respond to meta posts pretty promptly - essentially, we do alright right now.

Moderation seemingly helps manage issues like spam accounts, unhandled duplicate tags, long review turnaround times, and limits even trying to add to review queues (especially askubuntu), etc.

Many of these things don't scale linearly, nor do they 'really' rely on having more moderators to deal with.

  • Spam accounts

Super User currently gets 1/3 or half the spam on the network. Anecdotally speaking, a single mod can deal with most of them over the day. We do have additional reporting methods and my 'tooling' for this is a little better but having mods available at the right time (that's to say geographic diversity) has helped us more than quantity of mods.

  • unmerged duplicate tag

Catija covers most of the points I wanted to make in her answer. Practically this is a design/visibility issue + more per site meta usage would help.

long review turnaround times, and limits even trying to add to review queues

Isn't a moderator issue at all - it's a sign of either a community that grew too fast for its tools to catch up, or a community that's declined enough that the high rep users aren't spending time on the review queues. And a community without enough people involved in curation and metamoderation are going to have trouble finding moderator candidates.

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    Interesting SU (my ~3rd most used SE site) particularly gets so much of the spam. I glanced at it after reading that, and the most recent question was actually a spam account (I flagged it, and the flag was handled quickly). I'd at least think in terms of when mod(s) leave rather than if Commented Aug 18 at 13:53
  • I want to re-emphasize that I'm almost never even able to suggest tag synonyms as a non-mod, regardless of having enough reputation on SO (because of tag score requirements for non-mods). Someone could eventually see suggestions (urgency seems unnecessary) if they could be made at all Commented Aug 18 at 13:54
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    @PatMyron well, in theory the folks with the tag score should be dealing with it, or tag scores adjusted, and the relevant folks who can propose/assent to said tag merges aware. I'd say its a thing for the per site meta and other means. As for bus factor, That's something I'm painfully aware of but We can manage, assuming the moderator didn't leave due to drama or politics that affects the site as a whole. Commented Aug 18 at 13:57
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    Also, I've no idea why we get hit so hard over a long period of time, for little benefit. The posts don't last long, we clean up the users after that (and our processes are pretty comprehensive) so these folks are creating hundreds of accounts for little payoff. Commented Aug 18 at 14:02
  • I assume there's some automation making the number of accounts created less arduous, so it could still make sense on their end Commented Aug 18 at 14:59
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    oh heck no. From what I can tell, at least some of them are doing it on phones (we sometimes get google keyboard default text as pre-spam filler) . There's indications elsewhere (from someone who analysed similar spam its all manual. I suspect its just rooms full of spammers on phones Commented Aug 18 at 15:16
2

No

I do not see any need for mandatory periodic elections.

If elections should be held, that should be driven by the sites needing more moderators. An arbitrary length of time is orthogonal to that.

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    I'm taking the rare (on Meta) step and moving the comments to chat; please do not continue the discussion here. This conversation seems to be better facilitated in chat. Before posting a comment below this one, please review the purposes of comments. Comments that do not request clarification or suggest improvements usually belong as an answer, or in Meta Stack Exchange Chat. Comments continuing discussion may be removed. Commented Aug 13 at 17:57
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Give users a chance to feel represented

I think mod elections should be repeated based on the average user retention time of each community. This would ensure that a significant percentage of users feels represented by the current moderator team - which is in my opinion important if users should trust them to do sometimes hard decisions like suspending users, which directly impacts the community. Having elections does not mean that the mods should necessarily change, if a community trusts them, the same mods can be re-elect.

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    to clarify, moderators do not currently need to run for re-election: elections add new moderators rather than potentially replacing moderators Commented Aug 14 at 14:17
  • 2
    The average user retention is probably measured in days since the average user comes once and doesn't come back. Commented Aug 15 at 13:37

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